bedrijf zonder BTW? help please

[Newer]

Good day,

 

First of all, sorry for don´t write in dutch but I am learning yet and this kind of theme it is a little bit complicated for me in dutch. I am going to create a company. My company will works with ships. It will be an intermediate between my clients (ships) and the suppliers (a Catering service).

 

I will recieve an order from the ships, and I have to search and choose the best supplier in each port where the ships is going to be.

 

My question is: The things that the supplies supply in the ports/havens arround the world (In Netherland also) doesn´t have BTW (Or taxes) because are productos for the ships in the sea, and they are free of taxes.

 

- How can i declare my income to the belastingdienst if my invoices will be not with BTW?

 

I went to the KVK to inform about the steps to create a company, and I commented that example, but the person that spoke with me, didn´t know about that... (Now we have to go again to put my company on, and take the kvk nummer)

 

So, if my company doesn´t work with BTW, it will be neccesary take an advisor ot will be more easy? Because my company will start with not too much money with just one client, and the advisor are really expensive for me at the begining....

 

I will not have a payroll because is not too much money at the moment, and it´s just an "extra" job. How much money I have to pey per year to the kvk?

 

I hope you understand me,

 

Kind Regards and thank you in advance

[P.J.]

Your notes do make new questions as well. Do Dutch shipping companies also have 0% BTW in Dutch harbors?

 

I think Joost will find some answers for you.

[P.J.]

I hope you can read Dutch.

 

http://www.bdo.nl/nl/publicaties/Documents/Haven-en-btw.pdf

[Newer]

Thank you for the response. I am going to try to translate that information with a "online translator", because I see a lot of words that I cannot be able to translate myself. Thank you for your information.

 

I have worked in two catering companies but the invoices of those companies doesn´t have BTW (Those are sited in The Netherlands). The think is that I will don´t make an invoice, because I have to pay the invoice of the supplier (with my discount), and my client has to pay me the original invoice. So, I don´t make any invoice with my kv number because I don´t have own supply... I will try to looking for on internet. I have found information about that but not exactly of my case.

 

Bedankt voor jouw reagieren

[4711]

Your company will “work with BTW” as you call it.

And your customers are businesses (your line of business is called B2B – business to business).

 

Your activity (that a new one to me!) will be “bemiddeling op het gebied van catering” (intermediate for the catering business).

 

Some of your customer will be located in NL, others in the EU (outside NL) and again others outside the EU (in the Pacific or whatever).

 

When the customer is located in NL you have to charge VAT (BTW) for your services.

When your customer is located outside NL, but within the EU, you have to shift the VAT to the customer.

When your customer is located outside the EU, VAT is not applicable.

 

A fairly complicated construction. I suppose you will need help on this. Try to find someone with enough knowledge about the subject, but without big luxury office or expensive BMW that you have to pay for.

 

[Norbert Bakker]

I think Joost will find some answers for you.

Joost is in Tuscany, taking a well deserved vacation :)

[P.J.]

Your company will “work with BTW” as you call it.

And your customers are businesses (your line of business is called B2B – business to business).

 

Your activity (that a new one to me!) will be “bemiddeling op het gebied van catering” (intermediate for the catering business).

 

Some of your customer will be located in NL, others in the EU (outside NL) and again others outside the EU (in the Pacific or whatever).

 

When the customer is located in NL you have to charge VAT (BTW) for your services.

When your customer is located outside NL, but within the EU, you have to shift the VAT to the customer.

When your customer is located outside the EU, VAT is not applicable.

 

A fairly complicated construction. I suppose you will need help on this. Try to find someone with enough knowledge about the subject, but without big luxury office or expensive BMW that you have to pay for.

 

 

Read the PDF from my link and discover something new!

[Thor]

I think Joost will find some answers for you.

Joost is in Tuscany, taking a well deserved vacation :)

 

Fallitur augurio spes bona saepe suo

 

 

[P.J.]

Belangrijk citaat:

 

Bevoorrading zeeschepen

Ook onderworpen aan het nultarief zijn de levering, intracommunautaire verwerving en de invoer van goederen die zijn bestemd voor de bevoorrading van uitgaande zeeschepen waarmee een econo- mische activiteit wordt verricht. Wel geldt dat het voor toepassing van het nultarief moet gaan om specifieke bevoorradingsgoederen.

 

Volgens mijn interpretatie maakt het in dit geval dus niet uit waar het schip vandaan komt, als het maar zeevaart betreft.

[P.J.]

Die bevooradingsgoederen worden specifiek vernoemd omdat je anders elke keer een exportverklaring zou moeten opstellen. Dat is voor deze goederen en voedsel dus niet van toepassing.

 

Shipping-supplies are specifically noted because of the fact that you don't have to provide an export-declaration, as you have to do for shipping of commercial goods to somewhere outside Holland and/or the EU.

[Acrobat Reader]

Incredible this forum.

Answers in Dutch, English and even Latin!

 

'etlh QorghHa'lu'chugh ragh 'etlh nIvqu' 'ej jejHa'choH.

[4711]

Belangrijk citaat:

 

Bevoorrading zeeschepen

Ook onderworpen aan het nultarief zijn de levering, intracommunautaire verwerving en de invoer van goederen die zijn bestemd voor de bevoorrading van uitgaande zeeschepen waarmee een econo- mische activiteit wordt verricht. Wel geldt dat het voor toepassing van het nultarief moet gaan om specifieke bevoorradingsgoederen.

 

Volgens mijn interpretatie maakt het in dit geval dus niet uit waar het schip vandaan komt, als het maar zeevaart betreft.

 

Bevoorrading van schepen is niet datgene TS mee bezig is. Dat doet de cateraar.

TS is een bemiddelaar, een soort consultant.

 

Dat is althans zoals ik zijn verhaal begrijp. Maar misschien gaat ie zelf de maaltijden bereiden en dan kan het anders liggen.

 

 

[Jeannine vdLinden]

There is a difference between 1) High Sea Sales for which there is indeed no VAT/sales tax/BTW/whatever they call it locally and 2) sales for which the BTW&etc rate is zero and 3) harbor exemptions to the BTW&etc. If you are starting a Dutch company then this difference will be important to you in relation to what is called the voorbelasting amoung other things.

 

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

 

High Sea Sales mostly involve a purchase made by someone on land while the cargo is at sea, and your situation is the reverse. Yes or No?

 

You are essentially providing a service to the buyer on the boat by finding the seller on the land. Yes or No?

 

You are serving as the agent of the buyer on the boat, that is, you pay the seller on his behalf. Yes or No?

 

Have you spoken to anyone at the Belastingdienst directly about thins, on the phone or in a letter?

[P.J.]

Belangrijk citaat:

 

Bevoorrading zeeschepen

Ook onderworpen aan het nultarief zijn de levering, intracommunautaire verwerving en de invoer van goederen die zijn bestemd voor de bevoorrading van uitgaande zeeschepen waarmee een econo- mische activiteit wordt verricht. Wel geldt dat het voor toepassing van het nultarief moet gaan om specifieke bevoorradingsgoederen.

 

Volgens mijn interpretatie maakt het in dit geval dus niet uit waar het schip vandaan komt, als het maar zeevaart betreft.

 

Bevoorrading van schepen is niet datgene TS mee bezig is. Dat doet de cateraar.

TS is een bemiddelaar, een soort consultant.

 

Dat is althans zoals ik zijn verhaal begrijp. Maar misschien gaat ie zelf de maaltijden bereiden en dan kan het anders liggen.

 

 

 

Dan zou het een gewone "forwarder" betreffen waar Rotterdam vol mee zit. Blijkbaar heb ik een andere interpretatie. De TS zal duidelijkheid verschaffen.

 

We have some confusing about your planned activities. I understood you should start a company to provide ships (in sea-ports) from food and other use-material. Is that correct?

[P.J.]

Ik heb het nogmaals gelezen en "supplies supply" is duidelijk leveren van verbruiksgoederen en niet van lading.

 

Overigens valt daar ook alles onder dat aan boord gebruikt wordt en het schip niet verlaat, tenzij het op is en/of versleten. Dus ook touw en kabel, maar ook ankerketting e.d.

[Newer]

@Jeannine vdLinden : about the first question; Yes. We order to the ship supply company what things (food specially) must to supply in that ship (Of course when that ship is on the port).

 

About the second question; Yes, My work is recieve an order from the ship to supply in "x" port on "x" day, send the budget to all the suppliers, and decide wich the best company to supply the order to the ship when it is in the port.

 

About the third question, I pay the invoice that the supplie send me after the supply. So, that invoice (In my old works in catering companies) is not with BTW or VAT, so it is like duty free.

 

I have not spoken with the belastingdienst because people say me that just answer the cuestions víá telephone/mail in dutch, and my level is not high, yet. And I have thought that maybe in de KvK, in a few weeks when I go to put my company on. (But of course I would like to know what the people think about that)

 

@p.j.: It is correct. I will provide foods and maybe another materials but through the suppliers. I will not have a own products. Basically i managed the orders.

 

And that´s a reason my questions, because I dont make any invoice. I pay the invoice that the supplier send me (with a discount for me, this is called "credit note) and my client pay me the invoice but without the discount.

 

I don´t know yet if i will have a new invoice for my client, or if directly i am going to send the original invoice. Maybe it´s better make a new invoice to my client. It is more profesional I think, but this is my doubt, beause then I have to make an invoice without BTW (as the supplier send me it) and maybe I have a problems with the belastingdienst or I don´t know if they have control over this kind of operations...

 

So, really the reason that this products doesn´t pay BTW / VAT is because the companies supply the order in the Sea (When the ship is in the port) and that products is going to be used in the sea (No in a Country).

 

 

Thank you

[P.J.]

Now your construction is clear for me, I question myself if exciting companies will let you go into that market. I think bigger shipping companies will have solid contracts.

[Bazzio]

if read this correct you are the middle man between ship and supplier, but the suppliers deliver straight to the ship and send the invoice to you, en you bill the ship for the supplies + your fee, or do you profit from the margin between the two?

[Newer]

@Bas: Yes, my benefit is the margin. The supplier must to do two invoices (All the suppilers working the same). One invoice as a "credit note" (this is an invoice with a discount for me, 10, 15%...) and another invoice with the 100% of the ammount. So, I pay him the "credit note", and my client pay me the invoice 100%. You know, my benefit is this 10/15 % of each order because of the managing and take care of all the orders.

 

Then... This invoices don´t have BTW/VAT. So, If I don´t pay BTW, and my client don´t pay me BTW, I understand that I can´t declare the BTW because my invoices are not with BTW. Then, I supose I have to pay a yearly ammount to the "KVK", and declare my benefits once per year just sending the invoices and my account movements (I suppose I can make it vía web). This first year will be not a lot of money.

 

@P.J.: Yeas, there is a lot of companies that are working with a company like the mine one, but there is also companies that are not working. Now I have a client, and I will start in Juny. It´s an extra-job, especially in the beginning, but y will try step by step. The problem is that my first year I am going to bill little money, so I hope that I can declare my incoms myself, because if i have to pay an advisor it is a big problem for me untill I'd be able to make more money and i'd can afford!

 

 

Do you think It is easy to make myself? I have seen in the belastingdienst website that you can make it via internet. looks easy.....

 

 

[Derek-Jan]

From my past experience as a ships service supplier ( we deliver the stuff to ships around Europe ) you invoice everything with 0% vat as long as the goods are T1 goods.

[4711]

Do you think It is easy to make myself? I have seen in the belastingdienst website that you can make it via internet. looks easy.....

 

I see, it’s a bit different than I thought in the first place:

Then you are an intermediate who is acting in the name of your customer (that means that the invoice from the supplier is made for your customer and not for yourself) and the VAT is 0% for your services.

Your services are regarded related to the shipping/freight, that’s why.

 

Be aware of the fact that you have to register for the VAT (BTW) also for this. And you have to report these services in your VAT return (with 0% VAT).

And you can deduct the VAT charged to your company (on invoices from your own suppliers) on the same return, so you will get a refund on that.

 

[Jeannine vdLinden]

Truly, the BTW is not scary and neither is the Belastingdienst. When I first started out in the Netherlands 6 years ago my spoken Dutch was truly vile and my written Ducth is still...the written Dutch of a person who first came in contact with it when she was well over 30 years old. :)

 

My experience was that if you call or write to the Belastingdienst, and make your question clear in either language, they will get somebody who will help you. In English if necessary. Sometimes I have had to wait on hold while they found somebody; my best experiences have actually been with importing and exporting things and dealing with harbor and entry related issues.

 

Here is the thing: the tax people want you to do it the right way. You also want to do it the right way. This makes everything easier. But you will get better tax advice from....well, almost anybody, including your neighbor's cat, than from somebody at the counter at the Kamer van Koophandel. It isn't their job, really.

 

I think Peter has the right of it in his last answer, but it is hard to be sure.

 

Do you do your own taxes now or do you have somebody do it for you? Your life will be much easier adn you will probably save some money if, for the first year, you get somebody to help you learn the ins and outs of it. Filling out tax returns on line is very simple -- if you understand the system a little bit. If not, it can become annoying and also expensive.

[P.J.]

@Bas: Yes, my benefit is the margin. The supplier must to do two invoices (All the suppilers working the same). One invoice as a "credit note" (this is an invoice with a discount for me, 10, 15%...) and another invoice with the 100% of the ammount. So, I pay him the "credit note", and my client pay me the invoice 100%. You know, my benefit is this 10/15 % of each order because of the managing and take care of all the orders.

 

Then... This invoices don´t have BTW/VAT. So, If I don´t pay BTW, and my client don´t pay me BTW, I understand that I can´t declare the BTW because my invoices are not with BTW. Then, I supose I have to pay a yearly ammount to the "KVK", and declare my benefits once per year just sending the invoices and my account movements (I suppose I can make it vía web). This first year will be not a lot of money.

 

@P.J.: Yeas, there is a lot of companies that are working with a company like the mine one, but there is also companies that are not working. Now I have a client, and I will start in Juny. It´s an extra-job, especially in the beginning, but y will try step by step. The problem is that my first year I am going to bill little money, so I hope that I can declare my incoms myself, because if i have to pay an advisor it is a big problem for me untill I'd be able to make more money and i'd can afford!

 

 

Do you think It is easy to make myself? I have seen in the belastingdienst website that you can make it via internet. looks easy.....

 

 

 

You always need an adviser. But when you are common with running your own administration, you can use that adviser for:

 

- Final BTW check once a year. (You can do the BTW arm. through internet by yourself) A good adviser will help you the first time.

 

- Income-tax declaration. For this you have to be careful because the costs for the administrative-service-provider can be more as the profit you make. That costs are not profit-relative so be careful to find a good adviser/administrator. Don't do business with cloud-talking people but with straight talking only, otherwise your work is for zero.

[Newer]

Do you think if I earn this year 4.000 € for example, finally I have to pay more than 4.000 € in belasting? ??? ??? ??? Oh my If i earn 4.000 € and I have to pay X % over the benefit I understand arround 25 / 30 % it depends of kind of company. How can I pay more than my incoms? i´m just one person earning 4.000 € per year. I don´t have an own products, I don´t have a rented office, I produce nothing. I am afraid ! Maybe I was confused and there is more taxes apart of "tax over your incoms" and "yearly paymento to the kvk". But I don´t know what kind of declarations the belastingdienst can demand me, apart of the invoices that I pay, invoices that my client pay me. I don´t have nothing more :-\

[P.J.]

For the administrator as I noted (final check BTW and income-tax arranging) you will pay less that 300 as I think. Higher fees are not very realistic. (cloud paying)

[Jeannine vdLinden]

Do you think if I earn this year 4.000 € for example, finally I have to pay more than 4.000 € in belasting? ??? ??? ??? Oh my If i earn 4.000 € and I have to pay X % over the benefit I understand arround 25 / 30 % it depends of kind of company. How can I pay more than my incoms? i´m just one person earning 4.000 € per year. I don´t have an own products, I don´t have a rented office, I produce nothing. I am afraid ! Maybe I was confused and there is more taxes apart of "tax over your incoms" and "yearly paymento to the kvk". But I don´t know what kind of declarations the belastingdienst can demand me, apart of the invoices that I pay, invoices that my client pay me. I don´t have nothing more :-\

 

No, that is not what he meant to say. He is trying to say that the advisors who you can hire to do your taxes are paid by the hour and that it doesn't matter how much you make, it matters how many hours they have to work. So you should choose a good one.

 

For the BTW, you file a report with the tax agency of exactly what you say: what you bought and what you sold. If what you sell has a tax rate of 0, then you fill in the box for "things with a tax rate of 0".

 

For your income taxes, you just file your income taxes as you always do. If you have income from your business, you can probably just add this on as your income from other work. But this is one of the things you should talk to a tax advisor about.

 

The payment to the KvK is not a tax, and the KvK is not a government agency. It is a mandatory membership fee. That is, you have to be a member by law if you want to do business in the Netherlands.